BlackBerry 8830 GPS disabling- Verizon responds

Earlier this month I posted about the RIM BlackBerry 8830 that I purchased from Verizon only to discover that the integrated GPS had been disabled by the carrier.  There is much lamenting and angry buzz from Verizon customers who were also "taken" by this decision to disable this rather cool feature.  I received a response from Patrick Kimball of Verizon explaining the situation with the 8830:

There are a couple of points that I'd like like to make in regard to this issue.

GPS is not disabled on the 8830. It can still be used for E-911 location so that emergency services personnel can locate the caller when they call 911. What is restricted is the ability of unapproved 3rd party applications to utilize the GPS functionality. It's less a matter of our blocking 3rd party applications from being used on our devices and more a case of our having a rigorous process for ensuring that any 3rd party application that is used on the devices that we sell has been thoroughly tested to ensure that it meets our standards. This process ensures that the applications work properly on our network and devices, that our technical support staff are prepared to support them and prevents things like viruses from getting onto our network. Location Based Services such as VZ Navigator are not available on the 8830 yet but we do plan to implement them in the future.

I realize that this is frustrating for users, especially the more technically savvy, that would like to download applications to their handsets but the process that we have in place is designed to provide the best possible experience for our customers in terms of reliability and supportability and also to ensure that the applications pose no risk to the device or to our network.

Hope that helps clarify things....

I will share my response here with you:

Thanks for clarifying Verizon’s position, Patrick.  The problem with that reasoning stems from the fact that RIM has a Maps application pre-installed on the 8830 which is designed to be used with the integrated GPS.  That functionality has been disabled by Verizon.  The GPS if enabled could also be used with Google Maps, an online application that is popular world-wide and would surely meet any standards that Verizon might prescribe to.  I appreciate your response but in light of the fact that both Sprint and AT&T find the integrated GPS to pose no threat to their networks it is even more difficult to understand Verizon’s position with this.

So it definitely appears that Verizon will be offering the VZ Navigator service in the future for use with the GPS on the 8830.  I would like to thank Patrick for responding about this delicate situation and further state that I've met him and he is a really nice guy so don't shoot the messenger.

Comments

[Darren Swartzendruber]

Earth to Verizon .... BS

Enabling the integrated GPS has nothing to do with phone functionality of the device and has nothing to do with the Verizon network. Next Verizon will be telling me that I cannot install 3rd party apps like TomTom or Pocket Informant, etc.

[Jeff]

Given his response, it sounds like another VZ attempt to force users into their "pay for play" philosophy. VZ Navigator capability doesn't necessarily mean a fully unlocked GPS that can be used by any software app on the device. His wording sounds suspiciously like they might restrict the GPS chip functionality use to VZ Navigator only (a fee based service, of course).

Like the V710 lawsuit, the 6700 simultaneous WiFi/Phone cripple, BT DUN cripple on the 700w, etc, etc. Verizon can say what they want to, but their history shows a suspicious pattern of behavior. When these restrictions easily benefit VZ and then, only after much criticism are restored, you can't help but come to the above conclusion. Let's also keep in mind here that Verizon tends to delay new handsets longer than other carriers while they do "extensive testing". With this extra time, why doesn't this extra testing cover those features you disable initially but then add back later?

I switched to Verizon from AT&T several years ago, but this kind of thing bothers me. Between that and the glacial pace at which they release new handsets, it takes a lot away from the benefit of bettwer netwrok coverage. Today in fact, I heard a radio spot for VZ trhat seemed to directly target the iPhone without using the name. It was something along the lines of "...a slick device is nothing without a quality network behind it..". While that's true, you could make an argument that a quality network is nothing when you can only use it with crippled devices.

Just my $0.02

Jeff

[JimAtLaw]

Ditto Darren's comment.

This is a case of disabling the feature of the phone so that you can charge a monthly fee for using GPS, which Verizon has nothing to do with providing (other than breaking and then selling the devices built by RIM).

Verizon's customer service and attitude have taken such a steep nose dive over the past decade that even the much maligned Sprint is starting to seem preferable. I used to be a committed Verizon user, to the point of evangelizing their solutions to my friends and colleagues. Unfortunately, they no longer deserve such loyalty - after years of disabling Bluetooth and other useful features on their phones, the latest example being GPS, and also recently capping the so-called "Unlimited" data plans at levels that can be exceeded by ordinary web use, I could scarcely think worse of them.

I used to have a Verizon 1xRTT data card, and recently got new 3G data service, but I chose AT&T HSDPA rather than Verizon EV-DO, and my next phone will be on AT&T as well, switching away from Verizon. Others are making the same decisions in increasing numbers - for people who want to be able to use the full feature set of their phones without paying extra fees for functionality that costs Verizon nothing, Verizon does not want you as a customer. Funny, since many of the people who would use the disabled features are exactly the high-margin high-dollar users you'd think they would want to retain, but fine, I'll take the $300/mo I spend on mobile connectivity elsewhere.

[Stephen Feger]

I genuinely hate reading things like this because it gets me so annoyed. I don't begrudge Verizon their profit motivation. Is is, after all, a business... it's their business, their network and they have every right to do what they want. I say this because I have the right to leave. If I have a contract, well then, I agreed to it and that's my problem.

But what I hate; what I absolutely despise, is when I get lied to. For me, that response from Verizon is an absolute lie. If they had said, "we're waiting to deploy our Location Based Service offerings and we will enable the internal GPS at that time" and left it at that, I would be fine. But this nonsense of security? Give me a break.

I would genuinely have no problem calling the person a liar and leaving it at that. As the saying goes "don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining".

I say that with 100% seriousness and my cellular corporate reps know it too. I run the wireless shop for my company and we have well over 3500 lines in use with better than 80% of them on the Verizon network. Their network is great, the customer service is very good (in my experience) and the business that Verizon has with us is because I chose them instead of AT&T. But they know that if they ever threw a line of BS line like that at me, I'd literally move 10% of my business off of them the next morning to remind them. That's one of the luxuries of the corporate world in not having to say you're sorry when you're the customer.

This Patrick Kimball is probably a standard customer service representative, so I don't expect that much from them, but man, comments like that really do get under my skin.

[ignar]

That response is so lame. Providing feedback to customer is a generally good thing unless... all you have to say is BS. Verizon is pathetic.

[Vinit]

Basically, Verizon's "quality control" measures for any new 3rd part app feature this one test ... "does verizon get to make some money off of this app?"

If no, then suddenly the app in question needs further "testing"

Serious!

[Dave Zatz]

"any 3rd party application that is used on the devices that we sell has been thoroughly tested to ensure that it meets our standards."

Did they validate Google Local and Opera?

[Walter Hutchens]

A really good commentary on the incumbent carriers vs. innovation war in mobile devices, with particular respect to upcoming spectrum auctions in the US, is available from CSPAN's The Communicator's series. On June 20, 2007 they interviewed Almo Sarva the Wireless Founders Coalition for Innovation." He attacks this lame "it will bring the network down" argument directly, saying how carriers have used it from the 1950s, to block answering machines then, GPS and other services now. You can find the half hour interview as a podcast in iTunes or use RealPlayer to stream it from CSPAN here:

http://tinyurl.com/2kyogr

[ihateverizon]

they told me it was a security problem
what a load of #*#(*&

[David Burns]

I too find this extremely frustrating. Granted, I have GPS mapping in my car, but having previously used a BB7100i from Nextel that DOES have enabled GPS, I find I really miss it on my 8830. Adding to the frustration, the sales person in the store told me it does not even HAVE GPS (which I know to be not true) and the BB Maps application that was on the store sample "must have been installed by a customer, it won't be on your phone". Well, guess what, they hand my my new phone and RIGHT THERE ON THE SCREEN is BB Maps! Aargh! Buy a 7130 or 8830 from Sprint, and GPS is enabled and BB Maps works awesome. Buy the same device from Verizon (either one), and it's disabled.

This "security" BS is just that, BS. They say BB Maps is a "3rd party" app, when it comes from RIM and is included on every 8830 that Verizon sells? What???

I too would be very interested in pursuing some action to "encourage" Verizon to remove their disabling of the capability. I am upgrading to the new device software 4.2.2.148 that just came out from Verizon last week, and I see that one of the changes is that the SIM capability can now be unlocked to allow non-Verizon SIMs to be used overseas. I am quit sure this change in policy was a result of so many complaints and lost customers.

Perhaps if there's a groundswell of user protest (ala the campaign to send bags of nuts to CBS in an effort to save the Jericho TV series, which WORKED! http://www.nutsonline.com/jericho), Verizon can be convinced to do what's right.

[LIARS at verizon]

I don't know about the GPS but I got an advertisement in the mail from verizon saying that if I switch back they will give me a free blackberry 8830... Well this is day 2 of phone calls, etc. I even spent half the day in a local verizon store while their employees called everyone they could possibly think of to find out what was going on, and in the end referred me to telesales. Even though they acknowledge that this is a promotion that they currently have going on, they actually had me FAX & EMAIL the ad to their supervisors to prove that I have it!!! And now they're giving me the runaround (AGAIN!) saying it was only supposed to go to AT&T customers (I'm w/sprint), although there's nothing about AT&T mentioned in the literature I received. Last night after sending the fax, I tried calling the supervisor I was referred to, ALINE AMAYO-CANO, who proceeded to forward my calls to voicemail until it was time for her to leave for the day. When finally I got in contact with someone else in her office I found out that she had left for the day, and the fax that I had sent was nowhere to be found. I had verizon service before and was happy with them, but after this bull**** I'm starting to reconsider...

[JohnMc]

I have a Verizon wireless family plan for more than 2 years and we're all ready for newer phones. I was also thinking of buying a Garmin nuvi until I heard about the gps capability of the 8830. Unfortunately for Verizon after all the negative comments about them disabling the gps capabilities that I'm looking for we will be looking to switch to a new carrier. That would save us from having to purchase a separate Gps device.

[James]

I do not want to defend the Verizon response but would like to make a comment regarding what they responded. They said that the GPS is restricted for unapproved Third Party applications. As a developer, I can tell you that some of the carriers require 3rd party applications to be certified by them before they allow them to access certain features of the phone programatically. The reason behind this is so that people should not be able to write a program that tracks someone using their built in gps without them knowing it. Making apps go through the certification process ensures that the software is not malicious and the user will know they are being tracked. Of course, to get your application certified is another revenue stream for Verizon as it is a hefty price to pay for that service. This cost however is placed on the software company and not the consumer. It would appear to be flawed as in the case with software such as Google or other well known vendors that are already trusted in the eye of the general consumer. I certainly don't want it to sound like I am backing them, just trying to shed any information I might have that might help.. I personally have never used Verizon nor will I ever use them. I have been with AT&T since 1998 and will probably never change. I wish everyone luck with their phones.

[Derek]

It's been mentioned before, but it deserves repeating. Verizon is lying. It would better if they had told the truth, which as we all know, is that they want to charge for their own maps application. It's a lie plain and simple. Seems ironic, and rather telling, that the Verizon corporate name is derived from "Veritas" which is Latin for truth.

[Stephen Brown]

DISCLAIMER: The following comments are what I, Stephen Brown, myself, believe that Verizon Wireless *must* do to resolve the issues that are plaguing BlackBerry 8830 owners. These following statements are only my opinions, and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Verizon Wireless, or Research In Motion (RIM), or anyone else for that matter:

That said, here is my rant:

Verizon *must* do the following:

1. They *must* enable the GPS functionality of the BlackBerry 8830 so that third party applications may access the GPS data stream via the Java JSR-179 API. Fully. Completely. Without Interference. NMEA0183 interfacing must also not be restricted, but fully enabled and avaialable.

2. They *must* allow *freeware developers* an equal share in the development process. So long as the developer is *open sourcing* the code, and not charging for the software, there should not have to be any so-called "certification" of the software.

2a. If Verizon just has to have software certification to verify that a *freeware application* meets their network standards--security and/or otherwise--then they should have that process available to freeware developers, but should not charge for it.

2b. If someone wants to profit from the freeware by turning it into a commercial products, then normal fees may apply.

3. If Verizon Wireless wants to excel over other carriers in the United States, then they *must* establish a different approach to handset implementation, ergo, they *must* adopt the latest handsets to CDMA technology with a wider selection, equal or better than (preferably better than) other wireless carrier's selections, in order to be competitive, and ensure customer loyalty to both their network and their hardware offerings.

4. Verizon Wireless *must* get out of the old "A vs B" AMPS (Analog Mobile Phone Service/System) carrier war mentality back from the old analog cellular phone days. Analog is dead, won't ever be around again, and the mentalities that drove the cellular industry at that time must also be put to rest, as well.

4a. CDMA came almost directly on the heels of the old AMPS cellular phone network system, and the extensive conservatism that accompanied that time and way of thinking went right over with it, accompanying the AMPS carriers into the digital age. GSM was digital from the start, innovation was encouraged, third party software developers enabled--without having to mess with overtly-difficult software certification--and marketing aggressive with new handsets being wanted by the new and emerging GSM carriers in Europe, Asia, South America, and Africa; also, when the United States finally figured out that GSM was a global cash cow, innovative and what might be termed, "exciting," GSM carriers appeared here, too.

4b. Summary Question: Why can't the largest CDMA carrier in North America do this?

5. Verizon Wireless must stop, immediately, the plethora of misleading and false advertising claims of the BlackBerry 8830's GPS functionality, Bluetooth File and/or Picture Transfer (either over carrier or to other handsets, etc.) If the advertisment says GPS Enabled, then by-golly, it better have it enabled, and not merely for Emergency 911 (E911) service availability. All cellular phones **ABSOLUTELY MUST HAVE THIS** {not my opinion, but the opinion of the Federal Communications Commission}.

5a. GPS Enabled means the following to those who see it, or any part of an advertisement that says "GPS" or "GPS Enabled":

*** 1. It means that the device so-advertised has an active, on-board, Global Positioning System receiver system (whether chip, module, or card based) contained within the case of the phone.

*** 2. It means, to those viewing the advertisment, that most, if not all, GPS-enabled applications, such as Mapping Applications, Directory Applications with Location Based Serviceability, GPS Tracking and Locating Applications (such as those used for Child Location and Shipment Tracking) will, more likely than not, work with the *internal GPS receiver system functional inside the unit.*

{Clarifying the above, so long as a particular application software meets the JSR-179 API specifications, then these applications should be able to, *transparently*, access the 8830's--or any other phone's internal GPS--GPS Receiver system.}

*** 3. Verizon Wireless *should* take a lead and admit their mistakes, re-educate their staff--especially *Customer Service Representatives* (CSR), expect their CSR staff to know about the handsets they are selling, as accurately and as informed as a layman can be made to understand. I'm not talking about everyone having the mind of a Technician, but front-line sales staff had better know their phones, or should not be hired, PERIOD!

6. "Unlimited Data" *must* mean precisely that, *Unlimited Data*. Not "Unlimited with a Five Gigabyte (5GB) monthly cap. That would be properly denoted by a statement something like: "Five Gigabyte Monthly Cap," "Limited Five Gigabyte Monthly Cap," or other similar language. No where in the statement should there be a reference to "Unlimited" anything unless it is truly that, Unlimited, with no restrictions on bandwidth data use.

6a. Summary Question: Verizon Wireless, if you mean unlimited, why don't you *really* mean it?

This is the end of my rant. Again, the preceding is what I, myself, believe *must* and *should* be done by Verizon Wireless to satisfy and appease it's BlackBerry 8830 user community at-large, both corporate types and consumer types combined.

If these things are not implemented, it is my opinion that this carrier--Verizon Wireless--is bound for, at the minimum, if it continues on its present course, anti-trust litigation, litigation involving accusations of misleading and/or outrightly false advertising claims, and providing misleading, incorrect, and outrightly false technical information to its end-users, especially the consumer who thought they were purchasing a GPS-enabled phone, but got something else.

Lastly, it is my opinion that, at the very least, Verizon Wireless will simply be left behind, both by the other CDMA carriers and, of course, the GSM carriers in North America.

One can not survive in the current wireless industry when one adheres to outdate business models and fails to recognize the element of "excitement" that wireless phone, smartphone, and smartphone/pda purchasers desire in their purchased products.

They'll simply bring them back, switch carriers, and say "so sorry, perhaps next time."

As soon as my past due bills are paid, I'm going back to AT&T, unless Verizon Wireless--with whom my bill is up-to-date, by the way--desires to change it's tune. I love Verizon Wireless's coverage, EV-DO speed, and what I consider to be "near landline" voice quality.

It'd be a pity to lose these things, but GSM's a'callin', and if T-Mobile gets their act together and expands it's United States coverage to what AT&T is--including the backcountry byways and towns--then they've got my business.

Verizon Wireless, Care To Respond? Send message to firefisheATinboxDOTcom . I'd love to hear from you directly. Please do not send me the usual security tripe, I've already gone over it at at least three BlackBerry forums, as well as the site in which this rant appears for the first time. I will accept only valid letters from Core Decision Making Executives! Please don't waste my time with "underlings."

In short, if you're not attached to the Board Room, please don't even bother!

Warm regards,
Stephen Brown
firefisheATinboxDOTcom
BlackBerry 8830 owner and Verizon Wireless customer (at least for now).

[Ron Taylor]

Just spoke with customer service -- they claim it (GPS) works with 3rd party apps.

[Ed Stuteville]

I spoke with Verizon CS last night and they acted as if they could care less. They were NOT planning to unlock GPS for third part--only their own VZNavigator. I guess my $250 a month (4 phones, BB text and email, and a USB Data card) is chump change to the largest wireless carrier. If I could find coverage as good elsewhere, I'd be history.

[Scarey Larey]

This is scaring me away from upgrading my phone with Verizon...

Is there any phone with Verizon that has GPS enabled for third-party applications?

Maybe it is finally time to throw out the last 10+ years of Verizon service and go to a less restrictive provider.

functionality >= wireless coverage

[Mark smith]

I have been a Loyal Verizon customer since 1998. This is going to be the straw that broke the camels back! What this is a AntiTrust Case, the samething people were after Microsoft in Code. Everyone needs to get together on a Class Action Lawsuit to include emotional distress in having to deal with customer service and getting the run around.
After my contract is up I am going to AT&T, where "WE" the Consumer can pick what apps we want! Good going Verizon you sure know how to loose your customers.