Zune under Vista problem solution- Apple welcomes me back to the social

I got a Zune player for Christmas and was immediately impressed with the player.  The simple interface is easier to manipulate than the iPod, and the nice big screen makes it a joy to watch videos.  I carry a lot of jkOnTheRun video reviews on my Zune and use them to explain to new acquaintances what it is I do on this site and the Zune never fails to impress those who see them.  If you recall I upgraded my Fujitsu P1610 to Vista a couple of months ago and my problems getting the Zune software to work correctly under Vista are public record.  I was about to sell my Zune player due to the inability to use the software as intended until Apple Computer came to the rescue.

To recap my problem, I have been unable to play the music downloaded from the Zune Marketplace since installing Vista on the P1610.  I can stream music on the P1610 fine, downloaded music syncs to the Zune and plays fine there, I just can’t play the downloaded music on the P1610.  It gives an error message that indicates there may be a problem with the audio hardware.  I spent too many hours trying to troubleshoot this and eventually turned to Zune tech support for help.  They had me uninstall and reinstall the Zune software (for about the tenth time) but doing a “clean install”.  This involved booting into safe mode and editing the registry to scrub all references to the Zune.  Reinstalling the Zune software in this pristine method didn’t work either, I still can’t play downloaded music on the P1610.  I must have spent over 20 hours total trying to get this to work.

So the Zune has been sitting largely unused until recently when I had some time to revisit this problem.  I did some research and I believe the problem with the P1610 Vista audio drivers are due to Vista’s new DRM requirements for audio and video hardware.  The Zune tech support rep admitted to me this might be the problem.  It’s plain silly that hardware that runs Zune fine under Windows XP suddenly can’t run it under Vista due to DRM requirements.  Like I said I was about to get rid of the Zune, in fact I had packed it all back up for resell, when I had a thought.  What if I installed the Zune software on the MacBook Pro?  I run a lot of Windows software on the Mac under Parallels Desktop so what would happen if I tried the Zune stuff on the Apple hardware?

I installed the Zune software under a Vista session on the Mac and connected the Zune player up at the appropriate point in the process.  Everything worked as expected and I can now run the Zune software, download and stream music from the Zune Marketplace, and sync it to the Zune, all from the Mac.  Even though the audio is virtualized through Parallels it works fine.  I find this particularly ironic that Microsoft’s DRM changes in Vista broke their own program, yet Apple’s MacBook Pro can run it in a virtual machine.  Now I have to decide if I’m going to keep the Zune or just go back to the iPod on the Mac.  I do like the subscription plan on the Zune.

Comments

[Warner Crocker]

Good and ironic news, given that iTunes still isn't completely fixed under Vista and can screw up your iPod.

[Ed Bott]

James, I don't understand this post.

You say "Microsoft’s DRM changes in Vista broke their own program." No, they didn't. When you run that program under Vista on different hardware, it works. So the program is not broken.

Your Zune works under Windows Vista on Apple's hardware. That means there's nothing wrong with Vista, or with the Zune hardware. What's the problem? Your P1610 Vista audio drivers. They are interacting improperly with the Zune software. That's where you should be focusing.

[Ed Bott]

Just as a follow-up. You also write, "I did some research and I believe the problem with the P1610 Vista audio drivers are due to Vista’s new DRM requirements for audio and video hardware."

Well, no, that can't be true. Your virtualized hardware has Vista drivers. If there were some sort of evil DRM requirement for audio drivers that made the Zune software fail, it would affect them too. Virtual hardware is still hardware and it still requires drivers.

The "DRM requirements" of which you speak have nothing to do with this issue, which sounds like a plain old driver bug.

[James Kendrick]

Ed, points well taken but according to the Zune tech support rep the P1610 (or any other hardware) should not be able to stream music nor sync it properly to the Zune player without also being able to play it on the P1610 itself. It is almost certain that the additional DRM requirements that Vista puts on the audio device drivers is blocking the ability to play the Zune downloaded music on the P1610. It is almost certainly an audio device driver issue as you correctly point out, but the cause is also almost certainly the additional DRM requirements that Vista puts on those drivers. In any event, the virtual Vista environment that Parallels creates on the Mac does not suffer the same fate as the genuine Vista drivers on the P1610, and thus the purpose of my installing the Zune on that platform and the purpose of this post.

[Zune-Online.com]

I found a couple of days ago a conflict happening on Vista when "audio enhancements" are enabled.

I don't think it has to do with your problem. The Zune Software and WMP11 just waits for 30 seconds before track changing.

Anyway, take a look:
http://www.zune-online.com/news/zune/a-zune-software-bug-on-vista.html

[Ed Bott]

James, that doesn't make sense. "It is almost certain that the additional DRM requirements that Vista puts on the audio device drivers is blocking the ability to play..."

There are no "additional DRM requirements" on audio drivers that affect the Zune. The "virtual Vista environment" is emulating a sound device and is loading a genuine Vista driver for that device.

If you would care to point me to a reference for your belief that there is some sort of DRM stuff in the drivers that is affecting this, then I'll be happy to research it further. And statements from random tech support reps are not exactly authoritative. I know that from long experience!

[James Kendrick]

Ed, I'm no expert at this audio thing and I'm only going by what the Zune tech support person told me over the phone. I have no reason to disbelieve that nor any technical backing for the belief. It's what I was told, and I have read online that Vista DRM is incorporated into the device driver level. While I agree with you that support people may not know what they are talking about I have no other information to go on. It worked on XP, doesn't work under Vista, does work on the Mac. That's the simple facts and what I've written here. It doesn't have to make sense, and perhaps that's the main point, isn't it?

[jbelkin]

This is why most people who buy an Apple product are pretty happy with it - it just works and you don't spend a lot of reloading the OS (whether it's the portable mp3 player or the computer). My three computers running OSX for an agreggate of 15 years now have had exactly 1 OS reload - most Pc users would find that hard to believe. At work, I have not gone a full year without at least 1-4 full OS reload in 10 consecutive years.

That's just a fact of life with Win - if you are okay with the need to constant tweak and fiddle with it - great - no one is telling you to switch but if you find it tiring or wearing - there's always the Mac.

[Ed Bott]

James, here's where you're getting confused:

"It worked on XP, doesn't work under Vista, does work on the Mac..."

No, it doesn't work on the Mac. It works on Windows Vista running on a virtual machine. It would almost certainly work if you were to install the software on Parallels Desktop for the PC as well. When you run Parallels on a Mac, you are creating the equivalent of a generic PC. Generic video hardware, audio hardware, etc. In other words, it is a different machine.

What you have established is that the Zune software doesn't work on your hardware and it does work when you install it on different hardware. Which happens to be virtual. In fact, by running it on Vista in the Parallels VM, you have established that the software *does* work under Vista. I don't own a Zune and I'm not trying to defend it. But your statement is simply not correct.

You write: "I have read online that Vista DRM is incorporated into the device driver level." And I can tell you authoritatively that is not true. I think I know the article you;re talking about, which is a sensationalist bit of claptrap riddled with errors. Unfortunately, it has now been accepted as gospel despite its fact-free nature. If you can give me a link, I'll be happy to read the page in question and see what the discrepancy is.

[Mike Cane]

>>>I was about to sell my Zune player due to the inability to use the software as intended

Ho! Welcome to the Anti-Social!

You know you really want an iPod.

It goes good with Mac!

Oh, I'm such a tempter. But, ahem!, you've already bitten into the Apple!

Har-har!

[James Kendrick]

Ed, I am not confused. I wrote this post from the viewpoint of an end-user, which in this case I am. I bought a computer that was tagged as "Vista capable", waited until the OEM released Vista compatible drivers, upgraded to the latest OS from Microsoft, and the Microsoft created Zune software broke. It is the only software that doesn't work at this point, although several other pieces of MS code gave me trouble too. It is almost certainly a driver issue, I've made that clear. The end-user experience is the same, I can't use the Zune on my PC running Vista.

I am very aware what a virtual machine is, I've used them many times. I agree with you that this proves the Zune software can run under Vista, the Mac experience does prove that. In the end it doesn't matter why it works from the end-user experience. When the Zune was first announced I wrote a piece here on this site that stated that since the Zune was a mainstream consumer electronics device that if Microsoft didn't make the usage as bullet-proof as that of the iPod then it would fail.

This whole situation is a killer for the average consumer, and that's my whole point with this. I have no doubt that a room full of experts could get this working, but after wasting over 20 hours myself I'm done with it. And I'm sure I lasted a lot longer than most consumers would have.

[Woadan]

James, your experience with Vista is just one of the examples I use for not running headlong where angels fear to tread. Even though it is the **AAs that are driving DRM, MS seems to be embracing it with their agreement to give proceeds from every Zune sale to Universal. (Apple fanboys note that iPods do DRM, too.) With DRM issues and user accounts and user security being all over the map as far as user experiences go, Vista is for damned sure not ready for prime time.

Woadan

[Ed Bott]

OK, let me know when you have anything to support your assertion that this is even remotely related to DRM. It's not, IMO. The end user experience is awful, I agree. If you would stop at that and not try to blame it on DRM, I would be happy to let go of this issue.

Ah hell, I'll let go of it anyway. Just send me an email if you ever want to share some actual links that support your belief that DRM is behind this.

[DBL]

"Ed, points well taken but according to the Zune tech support rep the P1610 (or any other hardware) should not be able to stream music nor sync it properly to the Zune player without also being able to play it on the P1610 itself."

If that's what your Zune tech rep said, then I'm afraid that he led you badly astray. Streaming music and syncing music does not require an audio driver, because it's identical to streaming or syncing any other kind of file (and in fact the streamer or the syncer does not even have to know that it is working with audio).

Playing back, however, does require an audio driver. Thus, your problem did not even require much troubleshooting to identify (certainly not 20 hours!). It is clear that the problem is with the audio driver on your P1610.

Your tech support guy was a ringer. He had no clue what he was talking about. This is especially evidenced by the fact that he started accepting YOUR theories, based on the popular buzz about a product rather than any technical principle (through no fault of your own, you're not the tech support guy), and HE just says 'Maybe so...'?

This guy doesn't have a clue about anything, sorry to say. Ed Bott is right. The Zune might be useful to you, but you had what is probably a minor issue that should have been answered with a simple 'Wait for Fujitsu to patch their Vista audio driver' and got screwed into a hole by tech support.

This happens often with many companies. So I suggest you double-check anything said by a corporate stooge with a local geek who isn't eager to get you off the phone.

[Gordon]

That's....weird. I haven't heard of that happening to anyone yet. What kind of audio chipset does the 1610 have? So far I've installed the Zune software on my Dell at home (vista pre-installed), a T60p (vista business) and the odd ball, a Mac Pro running Vista 64-bit (Realtek audio). So far all of them have worked flawlessly.

Well...I can't say flawlessly. I had a unique problem where one machine couldn't browse the marketplace. AT ALL. Turns out it was because even though I joined our old NT 4 domain at work, somehow it didn't give the domain user I was logging on proper privileges. If I'd log on as a local and not domain user, then the Zune store would work. Wacky.

I second the first comment. I have yet to try under the very latest release, but under the last update Apple did, the iPod performed WORSE. I first hooked it up and it says "optimizing 1 of 233 photos" 2 min later.... "optimizing 2 of 233 photos"....2 min later. Finally I unpluggd the thing in frustration.

[DBL]

"I had a unique problem where one machine couldn't browse the marketplace. AT ALL. Turns out it was because even though I joined our old NT 4 domain at work, somehow it didn't give the domain user I was logging on proper privileges. If I'd log on as a local and not domain user, then the Zune store would work. Wacky."

Not really so wacky or inexplicable -- this is a rather mundane firewall issue, of the type responsible for probably upwards of 90% of instances of things online not working in a corporate setting.

[jeff]

OMG!! What a mess! Drivers? Chipsets? DRM? For crying out loud! You'd think that the Zune team at Microsost would at least do lunch once with the Vista team to make sure that one works with the other! This is classic Microsoft. All of this nonsense about the problem being with the P1610. All can say is that, after spending six billion dollars on Vista development, at least Microsoft would have made sure stuff works with their so-callled "PC Partners". Let's here it for Apple's vertical integration strategy!

So the virtual machine solution returned you to your Zune Zen. Thanks to virtualization, the computing world is no longer flat. You don't have to choose sides. Keep your Macbook. Keep your Zune. Send Parallels a Thank You card and sleep well.

[bluemonq]

James, I might have missed something, but on your MBP, what version of Windows is being virtualized, Vista or XP?

[bluemonq]

Hrmm, rest of my comment got cut off. Here it is:

Because if XP is being virtualized, then that clears everything up, doesn't it?

1) Zune works fine for you in Windows XP
2) Zune breaks with your Fujitsu running Vista
3) Zune works fine with your MBP, which is running Windows XP as a virutal machine.

[James Kendrick]

bluemonq, it's running Vista Ultimate under Parallels.

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[Jeff]

Hi James,

I came across your post from last year regarding running your Zune on a Macbook Pro with Parallels. I was wondering, what version of Parallels Desktop were you using? Were you able to get your Zune to sync?

Grateful for any info. There's not much on the web about people trying to use a Zune on a Mac...

Jeff

[James Kendrick]

I don't know what version of Parallels it was but it was the current version at that time. It worked fine and I suspect it would work with VMWare Fusion too.